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July 2002 Guestbook
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Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
01:04:41
Comments
Linda, Where did you get the 4th edition of Crisis of Conscience?
All I could find was the 3rd edition. Age00
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
02:36:52
Comments
I want to say Thank You! so much for this site. I too have
an awful story of abuse during my childhood growing up as
a Witness. I'm sad to say one of the responsible ones is an
elder in the same cong. today! I am so glad there is finally
a place for victims to feel support after having to stay in
the "closet" for so many years. If the news media
only knew the half of what is and what has gone on for many
years it would fill a month's worth of programming. I truly
feel that there is an uprising on the way. You can only keep
people in the dark and feeding them $%^$ for so long before
they revolt. When they do revolt it will be the cleansing
that has been needed for 100 years. Then the protectors of
the pedophiles can start their own society and leave the true
believers to worship in the way that is pure and right. It
is wonderful that there is going to be a march on the headquarters
in Sept. I would love to be there and join the others with
a like story. I have never been a beggar but I think this
is worth asking. I was disabled about 10 years ago and only
have a small Social Security check every month to exist. I
want to be in the march in Sept but don't have any way financially
to do it. If there are any others who could help me get to
the march I would be eternally grateful. If by some chance
I don't have enough to get there I will return every dime
back to those who gave. If you can help in any way please
contact me. If nothing else meeting others with a like past
would pump us both up. I look forward to hearing from any
and all. Thank you K Henderson khenderson@lionco.com
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
02:40:00
Comments
To Linda Thoman: Yes Linda, I noticed I forgot the Y of YOUR
engagement, but it was too late. I had hit the button! I was
thinking about writing it again, but I figured you would understand!!!!;-))
So again ... CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR ENGAGEMENT!!!!! Europe
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
06:47:38
Comments
K, I think you have everything right except that it's not
going to be the pedophiles and their supporters who 'leave
and start their own group'. I think the people here are going
to have to do that. Good luck on your trip.
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
08:48:29
Comments
Re Your Comment: --- We speak openly amongst ourselves, amongst
our friends, family, parish, to our priests and others. ---
This, in my opinion, is a very telling statement. You talk
among yourselves -- not publicly as this web site does.
You're going on the assumption that I don't know Catholics.
I've known them in several different states and countries
for 50+ years, including one woman who was taken sexual advantage
of by her priest when she went to him in mental and emotional
distress over her marriage. However, that was in the very
early 1970's and I lost contact with her. She confided in
me but was terrified about my telling anyone else, so I promised
I wouldn't and didn't. From what I saw on a program the Public
TV Station, this is an uncommon occurrence within the Catholic
Church but, being that it's girls and women and it's the common
belief that girls and women "ask for it" (that's
what they said on the TV program), there is a lack of the
critical attention this heterosexual abuse requires. You're
trying to make it look as though Catholics don't have any
problems because they speak freely and that just simply is
not true. YOU may have an experience or circumstance or group
that gives you opportunity to speak freely but that does not
mean that it is true for the vast majority of Catholics. There
are plenty of people -- of your and other religions -- that
wouldn't speak against their religious organization and they,
over time, also suffer the mental, emotional and physical
difficulties that anyone would suffer for keeping important
issues bottled up inside of them. The issues may not be important
to anyone else but they are important to that person. I think
it's terrible that a person would not have an understanding
ear, even if it's an issue only relevant to themselves. I
don't need to come to this web site to speak freely. However,
the very fact that JWs and former JWs DO talk openly and PUBLICLY
is, in itself, commendable -- not shameful. The irony of this
is that it leads YOU and others like you to think that there
is a very disproportionate problem among JWs that does not
exist in any other religion, including Catholics. This, frankly,
is just not true. It's also very unrealistic. All the people
in this whole world are subject to sin. There are too many
influences to encourage gross sin and heinous acts against
one another. Many people are guilty of hurting one or more
people, including sexual abuse. They even have laws against
husbands raping their wives! Who are you trying to kid? JWs,
through their publications, are trying to help people to be
AWARE of these pitfalls, to help them recognize people and
situations and to act appropriately in these situations, even
within their own organization. I, personally, do not make
excuses for wrongdoing, however, I know that no matter what
label one chooses to pin on themselves, there are some things
that a "label" won't change -- each person's own,
personal internal makeup. The person, herself or himself,
has to work on making those changes. The Catholic Church hides
even criminals within the walls of their churches and refuses
to turn them over to law enforcement authorities. It's called "sanctuary".
Priest's will refuse to reveal the identity of those who confess
to them of serious crimes because of Priest/Confessor Privilege.
Therefore, even when they know they can help a police investigation
and even when they're asked by the authorities to help them
by giving them the name and location of the criminal, they
won't divulge that information. It appears that is true even
when an innocent man or woman is in jail and charged with
a crime the priest knows was committed by someone else. This
is COMMON KNOWLEDGE. So, please, don't get on your self-righteousness
bravado and act like everything is so much better in the Catholic
Church or any other church. The Catholic Church has had CENTURIES
to correct the problems in their church. When the Bible is
very clear in what it teaches in the areas of morality, why
would it take CENTURIES for the Catholic Church to FINALLY
look at the problem? It appears to have taken police investigations,
court cases and bad publicity that brought these problems
out in the open to the point where the Catholic Church couldn't
ignore the problem anymore -- and that's only priests molesting
boys. They haven't done anything about the sexual abuse of
girls and women yet. We're all a bunch of scum bags (even
if we live "good" lives, there isn't one of us that
is perfect) in the eyes of the one and only true God and it's
ONLY by Christ's ransom sacrifice and his perpetual pleading
before his father in the heavens that ANY of us have a chance
before the almighty God. Personally, I do not believe that
there is ANYONE that has more honest and open dialog than
JWs -- even now. Dateline said it 2 times -- JWs are the ONLY
religion that has a judicial system in place within its organization.
The only thing that has been proved is that the JW's judicial
system fails people sometimes the same as man's secular judicial
systems do. That's not giving my approval or making an excuse
for the failures in the JW or secular judicial systems. However,
I'm positive that the JW judicial system will be "cleaned
up" a lot better and sooner than the world's secular
judicial systems. No, JWs are not repressed. They're, for
the most part, very honest people. You don't see anyone trying
to shut down this or any other web site by JWs. However, it
would be interesting to see what would happen in other religions
if people were writing as they do here -- where the WHOLE
WORLD that wants to can also be privy to it. Since there really
are not any web sites like this one for any other religion
where ANYONE can access, there's no way to know what the individual
church's reactions would be. Therefore, your arguing ANYTHING
in this matter is mute.
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
09:34:52
Comments
DID EVERYONE GET BILL'S E-MAIL???????? He mentioned another
suit being filed Tues. and he will be at the press conference.
I too will be there. I will give him a hug for everyone!!!!!!
I can't say where it will be at this time, I am sure everyone
understands why. I love you all--keep talking, we can make
a difference!!!!!!!! Love Jesika Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
09:51:36
Comments
BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE - OCTOBER 29, 1911 on C. T. Russell's
Scandal GIRL KISSED PASTOR AND SAT ON HIS KNEE But Mr. Russell
at the Tabernacle: Only Submitted to it to be Kind. MAY HAVE
FELT HER PULSE He Sometimes Ministered to the Sick, Locked
in Another Girls Room Innocently. (Special to The Eagle) BROOKLYN
DAILY EAGLE - OCTOBER 29, 1911 Pittsburgh, October 27 - The
suit for a separation brought by Martha (sic)F. Russell against
Charles Taze Russell, her husband, popularly known as Pastor
Russell, who has just entered a libel suit against The Brooklyn
Eagle, is remembered here as one of the most sensational court
proceedings in the history of Allegheny County. Pastor Russell's
Advertising methods had already attracted a good deal of attention
to himself, and while many referred to him as "the crank
preacher of Allegheny," his unusual lectures and effective
publicity methods drew good-sized crowds to his Bible House
on Arch Street. When the fact that Pastor Russell's wife was
suing him for a separation became public much general interest
was aroused and the courtroom was thronged during the proceedings.
The testimony which elicited the most comment concerned the
relations of Pastor Russell with Rose Ball, a young woman
stenographer employed by Pastor Russell in the Bible House
on Arch Street. This testimony was given by Mrs. Russell on
direct examination on Thursday, April 26, 1906. It was ruled
out by the court on the ground that the incidents to which
reference was made were said to have occurred on a date which
precedes the dates mentioned in Mrs. Russell's bill of complaint.
Pastor Russell recurred to the incidents when he went on the
stand several days later, and gave his version of what had
happened. Rose Ball was not called to the stand, as she left
for Australia shortly before the case came to trial. The verbatim
record of this testimony taken from the official report of
the case on file in the office of the Prothonotary of Allegheny
County is as follows: Q. I want you to tell us what your husband
did in company with this woman Rose, in your presence and
in your home. A. In the first place I considered it--(objected
to and witness was not permitted to finish.) Q. Tell us what
you saw and what he said was done. A. One evening he spent
the evening downstairs and our library and bedroom were next
to each other upstairs on the second floor, and I spent the
evening downstairs reading, and I went upstairs about 10 o'clock
to my room, and I supposed that: he was either in the library
or had retired, and when I went up there I found that he was
in neither place, and I stepped out in the hall, and I found
that he was in his night robe, sitting beside Miss Ball's
bed and she was in bed. On other occasions I found him going
in there and I found she called him in and said she wasn't
well and wanted him in, and I objected to this, and I said
that it was highly improper, and I said: "We have people
about the house, and what kind of a name will be attached
in this house if you do that sort of thing?" and he got
angry. Pastor's Wife Tells of His Alleged Nightly Visits Q.
You state that you found him doing this at other times. How
often after that? A. I found him a number of times; I don't
remember how often. Q. In her room? A. Yes, sir. And I found
him in the servant girl's room as well. and I found him locked
in the servant girl's room. Q. Did he make any explanation
why he was in the girl's room? A. No. He did not; he just
got angry. Q. What did you say to him about this conduct and
what did he say. A. I said to him, "We have a great work
on our hands," and I said, "In this work you and
I have to walk very circumspectly before the world and if
you are going to do things like this, what will happen? Suppose
you are all right, don't you suppose people will talk about
things like this?" and I said, "I am not satisfied
with it," and he said he wasn't going to be ruled by
me. But I felt distressed about that. Q. What did Rose do
at the Watch Tower. A. She attended to the correspondence.
Q. Where was her desk with reference to the desk of Mr. Russell
of the Watch Tower Society? A. It wasn't near his; it was
in the office. Q. When would he go to the Watch Tower, in
the morning? A. I don't remember; he generally went down alone.
Q. Who would return with him? A. She came with him in the
evening and they came about 11 o'clock and the young men that
were in the office -- she was the only girl, and the young
men would go home, and he wouldn't allow her to go home with
them, and she must wait and always go with him. (Objected
to.) Q. I want the mere fact, did this girl Rose go home with
your husband? A. Yes, Sir. Q. What year was that? A. In the
fall of 1894. (By Mr. Porter, attorney for the plaintiff.)
Q. Did you state to your husband at this meeting any endearing
terms? A. Yes, sir. Q. What were they? A. I said "She
tells me that one evening you came home --" I asked her
when did these things occur. I said to him, "She says
they occurred down at the office when she stayed down there
with him in the evening after the rest had gone, and at home
at any time when I wasn't around." Q. Now, about the
endearing terms? A. She said one evening when she came home
with him, just as she got inside the hall, it was late in
the evening, about 11 o'clock, he put his arms around her
and kissed her. This was in the vestibule before they entered
the hall, and he called her his little wife, but she said "I
am not your wife." and he said "I will call you
daughter, and a daughter has nearly all the privileges of
a wife." Q. What other terms were used? A. Then he said, "I
am like a jellyfish. I float around here and there. I touch
this one and that one, and if she responds I take her to me,
and if not, I float on to others"; and she wrote that
out so that I could remember it for sure when I would speak
to him about it. And he confessed that he said those things.
Q. And the young men came home ahead of them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. State to the court and jury what talk, if any, you had
with this girl Rose, in regard to her relations with your
husband, which you communicated to your husband? This question
was objected to and it was changed to read as follows: Q.
You are to tell what you stated to your husband that Rose
had said and his reply to you. Mrs. Russell Says Girl Told
Her of Pastor's Caresses. A. I told him that I had learned
something that was very serious and I didn't tell him right
away. I let a day elapse until I felt I had control of myself
and could talk and then I told him that I had something very
serious to tell him about this matter, and he said, "What
is it?" and I said, "Rose has told me that you have
been intimate with her, that you have been in the habit of
hugging and kissing her and having her sit on your knee and
fondling each other, and she tells me you bid her under no
account to tell me, but she couldn't keep it any longer. She
said if I was distressed about it she felt that she would
have to come and make a confession to me, and she has done
that. (By the court.) Q. What did he say? A. He tried to make
light of it at first and I said, "Husband, you can't
do that. I know the whole thing. She has told me straight
and I know it to be true." Well, he said he was sorry;
it was true, but he was sorry. He said he didn't mean any
harm. I said, "I don't see how you could do an act like
that without meaning harm." Linda Thoman Linthoman0705@aol.com
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
09:54:38
Comments
To those interested in buying Crisis of Conscience 4th Edition ...go
here: http://www.freeminds.org/sales/books.htm Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
10:36:08
Comments
I just read a posting from a person who was upset with dateline,
this website and Bill. One comment was the damage that
Bill has done to the 6 million Witnesses can probably never
be undone. Question dear poster: Do you not understand that
Bill tried internally to deal with this problem but only received
roadblocks from the Society? Do you not understand that the
victims are you and the abused because the society DIDN'T
DO A THING TO SOLVE THIS, but was more concerned with coverup?
We see here a typical member also not dealing with the issue
and likewise concerned about protecting the Watchtower Corporation.
Did it ever occur to you that this may be a sign from Jehovah
saying to people put your trust in me instead of these self
proclaimed spokespersons in New York City! I feel you are concerned
about protecting religion, not protecting children. You love
the corporation first and the true victims second. I would
not be surprised it you took full advantage of broadcasting
the Catholic Church scandal(Which is wrong also), but now
the shoe is on the other foot. The simple fact is the leaders
of the Watchtower are not inspired, and yes like you say when
things don't go to plan, THEY ARE IMPERFECT HUMAN BEINGS.
WELL START TREATING THEM LIKE IMPERFECT HUMAN BEINGS and stop
buying everything they say as if it was direct from God. FJ
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
11:16:10
Comments
Hey all, check out the JW's stats report! http://www.jwic.com/stat.htm
Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
12:44:04
Comments
(See? It's not as cut and dried simple as you think ...) Actually,
it is. First, I like to say, that I have many friends from
different religious backgrounds (Catholics, Baptist, Jewish,
Protestant, JW, Muslin etc ...), and I am happy to say that
I do not discriminate or hate any on them because of there
beliefs……. Next, it is a FACT, that when the Catholics
where caught and exposed, they attempted to blame everyone
else but themselves……Just to go the Boston Globe
website for the FACTS and EVIDENCE…….Also, it
is a FACT, that the Catholic Bishops in Dallas fell short
in dealing with their big problem in the pedophile scandal,
namely, themselves…..If a Bishop protected a KNOWN CHILD
ABUSER and broke the law, he should be in JAIL, …..
So who is still denying and ignoring their own SCANDAL??????Who
is being manipulative?????Who has much, much to learn about
the Catholics scandal ??????Also, you seem to express a lot
of hate and anger when describing the WTS….WHY???????ANGEL31
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
13:05:31
Comments
The last post is suggesting that the WT society is a loving
group just like any other religion. Here is a small example
of their love. "They are not to assume the attitude or
follow the sinful course of Christendom's lucre-loving clergy,
who abuse and destroy the "sheep", scatter the flock,
and even rob and devour widows' houses to satisfy their lustful
and greedy appetites." (The Watchtower, 4/15, 1950, p.121)
Want more examples of love? Just ask. It's there.
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
13:30:09
Comments
in reference to the posting about pastor Russell: back then
women in the work force were called "girls" to lower
their status as compared to working men. Although the reference
to the girl sitting on his knee and kissing him sounded like
a child, not a woman. Have I misread this? Larry ldsommer@hotmail.com
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
15:10:31
Comments
ANGEL31 --- Hi it's Jesika again. I also have a lot of friends
from different religions and don't hold any beliefs against
them. The Catholics scandal is merely used in reference(at
least by me) to what can be done if we are not silent anymore.
The anger displayed by many towards the WT is rooted(in my
opinion) by hurt and betrayal. What has been taught to many
JW's since birth(myself included) is how honest and up front
they are. How right they are and how wrong every other religion
on earth is. They were there to protect us and to save us
from the wicked men of this world. They have forgotten to
put God first and what he would want for all his children--
prejudice and abuse are not among them. All I want is for
the WT to take responsibility for their own policy and admit
it was wrong--or at the least change it and prove they are
going to stick by it. No more children in any religion should
suffer. I am focused on the JW's's because that was the religion
that hurt me. I wish I could stop it everywhere, but I am
not God-and I would never try to be. Thanks Jesika Thoman
Dallas, Tx
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
15:33:28
Comments
Linda Thoman,….. As stated on this Website “We'd
like to know what you think about our web site. Please leave
your comments in this public guest book so we can share your
thoughts with other visitors.”…… So, Linda,
lets see who's comments above clearly indicate a tremendous
ignorance regarding my postings specifically in regards to
the Jehovah's Witness Organization …… On, Jun
19 2002, I ANSWERED a question POSTED by a REPORTER, along
with a question of my own, in regards to the Jehovah's Witness
Organization's ABUSE ALLEGATIONS…….……Afterwards,
some individuals, including JESIKA, posted comments to my
question…… So, who is being ignorant?????????
I have done plenty of research on this Religion and many others,
with an open mind and without being BIAS… I have all
the facts, and much more, so I feel the need to post it when
given the opportunity…..Just like YOU and everyone else
on this and many other websites ……If you don't
agree or like the FACTS, there is not much I can do about
it…….. OK, here is your first lesson of the day…………………………..Check
out this website www.religiousfreedomwatch.org,,some info
from that Website……. “Hate propaganda is
spread with only one purpose: to instill fear in the uninformed.
Those who commit such acts are well aware that, left unchallenged,
their lies will propagate and breed further acts of hatred,
even violence. Throughout history, men and women of religion
have stood against tyranny and fought for the natural right
of all individuals to practice their own faiths and beliefs,
free from harassment, suppression and persecution.”………………….OK,
now the second lesson of the day…..When any one of Jehovah's
Witnesses is accused of an act of child abuse, the local congregation
elders are expected to investigate. Two elders meet separately
with the accused and the accuser to see what each says on
the matter. If the accused denies the charge, the two elders
may arrange for him and the victim to restate their position
in each other's presence, with elders also there. If during
that meeting the accused still denies the charges and there
are no others who can substantiate them, the elders cannot
take action within the congregation at that time. Why not?
As a Bible-based organization, we must adhere to what the
Scriptures say, namely, "No single witness should rise
up against a man respecting any error or any sin ... At
the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses
the matter should stand good." (Deuteronomy 19:15) Jesus
reaffirmed this principle as recorded at Matthew 18:15-17.
However, if two persons are witnesses to separate incidents
of the same kind of wrongdoing, their testimony may be deemed
sufficient to take action…….Linda, as you can
see , I have done more than my share of RESEARCH…….So
for now , I will go by the FACTS and EVIDENCE I have researched……Don't
get me wrong, if the Cases Pending find the WTS guilty of
breaking the law, my opinions WILL CHANGE ...……Thanks
for your comments Linda…… ANGEL31
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
15:40:20
Comments
7-1 -- 8:48 Lord help you child. It is impossible for me to
reach someone so vehemently ENTRENCHED in denial. Only God
can do it. I pray He will.
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
15:42:47
Comments
HEY LARRY --- I think you may have over looked this line in
the posting(I had to go back and read it again after reading
your post)The testimony which elicited the most comment concerned
the relations of Pastor Russell with Rose Ball, a young woman
stenographer employed by Pastor Russell in the Bible House
on Arch Street. She is refereed to as a young women, plus I
wouldn't think they would ship a child to Australia. Even
though it wasn't a child it does show he didn't practice what
he preached-morally anyways. Love Jesika Thoman Dallas,Tx
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
16:00:42
Comments
ANGEL31 --- OK, doing research is great-that I agree with.
The two witness thing--I DO NOT!!!! My uncle molested me (Linda's
brother) and since he didn't do it to someone else(that I
know of) than I am at fault for coming forward against another
brother!!!!!!!!!! Nothing in this world would be able to convince
me of that!!!! My sister had 5 WITNESSES-- but the elders
wouldn't allow them to speak!!! Like I have told others --- If
no one witnesses a person that got murdered--is the person
faking being dead??? The only witness is the victim!!!! My
innocence was murdered and since I have no other witness-it
is dismissed!!!! THAT'S WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't
care how much research you do --- it is still and will always
be wrong. Even if the cases against the WT don't go all the
way-to the point that you would change your opinion, like
the example I stated above--if the murderer wasn't caught,
or they didn't have enough evidence, was the crime not still
committed and someone is still DEAD!!!!!!!! Like my innocence
can never be given back!!!! I don't care about anyone's opinion--I
know what is right and what is wrong!!!!!! Jesika Thoman Dallas,Tx
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
16:09:17
Comments
RE: Pastor Charles Taze Russell ...Interesting, but
if the things you wrote are really true, where are the citations? --- Unlike
the borg (who MYSTERIOUSLY are thrilled to accept unsigned,
un-footnoted pieces of one-way babble as the HIGHEST form of
journalism), that form of 'mystery writing' won't fly with
the THINKING people at this website. EVEN THO, it might be
something we would really LIKE to believe. So cough it up.
Truth or rubbish?
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
16:38:46
Comments
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness is not enough to convict a man
accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter
must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
--- Why does
the Watchtower insist that this verse written thousands of
years ago must be taken to the letter, yet other verses like
Revelation 7:5-8, naming all of the 144,000 tribes of Israel,
may be chucked into the rework pile to fit their theology.
And all the luminous "New Light" that has showered
us for the past 120 years from the society has been wasted
on covering up 'prophecies' that never materialized. Certainly
common sense should kick in with a little 'new light' where
it truly needed like here. It is my opinion however that
the real issue is protecting the societies image. After all,
they have to protect at all costs the Watchtowers claims to
be the Only True Christians on the earth. Here is an example
of their boasting: "So where is true religion to be found?
In all humility and honesty, we must say that Jehovah's Witnesses
form an international community walking along this 'narrow
and cramped road." (Watchtower, Dec. 1, 1991.p.8) So
the whole world is wrong but them! Puts them in a rather awkward
position when things go wrong. ===================================================
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
16:39:46
Comments
To Angel ...You wrote-“Hate propaganda is spread with
only one purpose: to instill fear in the uninformed. Those
who commit such acts are well aware that, left unchallenged,
their lies will propagate and breed further acts of hatred,
even violence. Throughout history, men and women of religion
have stood against tyranny and fought for the natural right
of all individuals to practice their own faiths and beliefs,
free from harassment, suppression and persecution.” "Hate
propaganda? Lies?" What propaganda, what lies? Perhaps
there are those who are making hate-filled comments, but I
do not carry hate towards any. Lies? What lies? Only the victim
and the accused know if lies are being told. The remainder
of your comments means absolutely nothing to me, because perps
are not going to invite an audience!!! This abuse is a crime!
ELDERS SHOULD NOT EVEN GET INVOLVED in these situations, but
only to encourage the PROPER authorities be notified and it
be handled by the police and not threaten victims and families
of victims of disfellowshipping if they speak outside the
congregation!!!! Elders/Congregations are NOT the Proper Authorities
for these types of things!!! If it was something like the
rule against Smoking, fine require two witnesses to make an
accusation. Smoking isn't against the Law, but adults having
sexual contact with a child/minor IS A CRIME!!! At that time
the Elders should back off and allow the police investigations
take their course and the guilty party go where they belong,
jail. Who made the asinine decision that the Governing Body
and the Society is the Judge, Jury and Executioner for everything?
Oh yeah, I already know the answer to that one ...I've been
reading Ray Franz 4th Edition of Crisis of Conscience! Sorry
Angel, that nonsense about needing two witnesses to make an
accusation is ridiculous when it involves crimes. Personally,
I feel any and all Elders/Ministerial Servants/Governing Body
Members, etc who have knowledge/evidence that crimes are taking
place and do not provide that information to the proper authorities
to handle the matter are almost as guilty of the perp, and
should be charged with Withholding Evidence In A Criminal
Case or something along those lines. And, I feel that any
Elders/Ministerial Servants etc who have knowledge of crimes
or past crimes that did not tell the proper authorities and
take swift action to protect others from the perp should all
be disfellowshipped themselves! Who will protect the "flock" when
the friggin "Shepherds" are doing everything to protect
the perps and the Societies Image and bank account! ARGH!!!!!
Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
17:04:51
Comments
"
RE: Pastor Charles Taze Russell ...Interesting, but
if the things you wrote are really true, where are the citations?" Your
comment that it was "interesting" was my only intent
by posting that information/link on this site. Where are the
citations? I only provided what I found, so far ...Linda
Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
17:08:29
Comments
"
HATE PROPAGANDA IS SPREAD WITH ONLY ONE PURPOSE: TO INSTILL
FEAR IN THE UNINFORMED" More Love From The Watchtower: "They
[the clergy] have in fact represented the Devil, because it
[the Church] is the Devil's organization." (J. F. Rutherford,
Life, 1929, p292) "Such was the state of affairs by the
time Constantine the Great laid the foundation of the Catholic
church in the fourth century A.D., and down through the centuries
since then, Christendom's multitudinous sects and cults have
continued to hold sheep like persons in their parish fold,
where they are plundered, exploited, fleeced and devoured
for the pleasure and profit of the false shepherds." (The
Watchtower, 4/15,1950,p119)
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
18:07:24
Comments
Question: If a congregation member is found dead(foul play)behind
the Kingdom Hall, and there was not two witnesses to the crime,
would everyone call it a night and just go home? Of course
not. A crime has been committed. The police would be called
in! The two or three witness rule MEANS NOTHING!!! Likewise,
if a child reports being abused by an adult, and surprise,
surprise, no one admitted it, would everyone call it a night
and just go home? No, ...I mean Yes. And that is the problem.
It is easier to hide the evidence within a helpless victim,
and pretend life goes on. This is a crime also! Treat it for
what it is. This is not a member found smoking which is not
a civil crime. It is a sin in the eyes of the Jehovah's Witness
though. So let the elders handle that. But on the dateline
show the elder in court did not want to be forced to report
crime for fear that no one will confess. That's fine if you
want to harbor criminals. Let your conscience be your guide.
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
19:33:27
Comments
What conscience??? There's an interesting post at Jehovahs-witnesses.com
(or something very close to that) - it's about WHY people
come back after having been DF'd. Top few reasons (in random
order) a) miss their family and would rather fake repentance
than continue alone without their family b) like having the
society tell them what to do so they don't have to take on
the complicated job of thinking through things themselves
- they like the black and white of it and the spoon-feeding
c) don't have another support system in place d) it's familiar,
even if they know it's wrong e) something' to do
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
19:35:59
Comments
Linda ...thanks for searching out the CT Russell stuff but
I can't give it any credence until, perhaps, you've got more
solid stuff. Even the story of Rose is pretty foggy. Too bad.
Keep looking. If he was a pedophile, that would pretty much
explain EVERYTHING, wouldn't it? Thanks for searching.
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
22:43:13
Comments
Another suggestion: What is being done to lobby the other
states that do not have reporting laws. Also does anyone know
what the law is in Canada? The Catholic Church has been getting
bad press there years before it surfaced in the States with
the Catholics and the Jehovah's Witness.
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
22:56:01
Comments
I am so shocked and whatever little I've read is enough -
it's like entering an alien world. Sarote
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
22:57:53
Comments
To ANGEL 31::::::::::::::::::I am very sorry if you are getting
so upset, but if you think "hate propaganda" is
wrong, what do you think of WTS's view on Christendom? JUST
GRAB A WATCHTOWER OR AN AWAKE! MAGAZINE AND SEE WHAT THEY
SAY ABOUT "CHRISTENDOM" FUNNY! The word "Christendom" means
Christianity according to the Webster Dictionary. Therefore,
Jehovah's Witnesses should be "Christendom", too,
if we are Christians. But I have to say that I'VE NEVER HEARD
THEM ( WTS ) SAYING MUCH ABOUT BUDDHISTS OR HINDUS ...just
a thought to be fair ...
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
23:46:26
Comments
My nephew and six of my nieces were molested by their fathers
repeatedly, and the fathers molested each others children.
They invoked the name of Jehovah in their actions, telling
them that Jehovah told them to do it to punish them, or that
Jehovah told them to do it to prepare them for womanhood.
Heinous atrocities were perpetrated on the boy child, and
yet, no one has represented him. Two girls charged the fathers,
but they plea bargained rather than opt for trial, with the
stipulation that no other child molestation charges could
be brought against them in the state of Florida. The witness
posse showed up at the sentencing, and though the children, weeping,
tried to tell how their treatment affected them, neither the
witnesses nor the father would look at the children as they
sobbed out their stories. Mr. Hagens of the sex abuse division
of the state attorney's office in Daytona Beach, FL, as well
as the detective who gathered the information on one of the
men, said it was the most heinous case he had ever seen. The
detective found some 750 pages of reports of sexual misconduct
(or suspected) on one of the men in the state of Florida.
However, the sexual crimes he committed more recently in the
state of Alabama far outweigh the gravity of what he did in
Florida, but with the Jehovah Witness protection, he was able
to keep hidden in what he did. A JW in the child protective
service even called him once to warn him that the C.P.S. was
on the way to get his children from school, and he was able
to go get them before they had a chance to talk to the children.
He had repeatedly told the children that if they ever told,
he would kill their mother, his estranged wife. These men
are out and with the flaunting their freedom, still reminding
the children that they are still victims, in that they have
never had to repent or recant, and indeed have never admitted
what they have done. These children need to feel that someone
is on their side. No one besides their mother and two aunts
have been their advocates. Would appreciate your help. Susan
K. Johnson, okee_dokey@yahoo.com
Remote User:
Date:
01 Jul 2002
Time:
23:51:22
Comments
I am pleased to find out about your website. I have not had
time to browse. However, their are several people who, will
hopefully find that they have support. susan k. johnson, okee_dokey@yahoo.com
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
02:30:07
Comments
Hi again, The letter I wrote was my personal opinion but I
still feel that the elders should protect it's members from
pedophiles who attend the kingdom hall and when they knowingly
allow a pedophile to attend the logical consequences is that
a child has/is/will be molested or worse ... This is the
nature of this type of deviant behavior ... all the
quotes of law does not change this FACT ...
When elders allow them (Pedophiles)to be in attendance at
kingdom hall and/or social gatherings children think they
are safe just because they are there ...When their parents
and/or others smile and say hello to the offender children
assume that person is OK ...By nature children
are very trusting ... For pedophiles
to get in with our children all they need is access (even
just visually "smiling at our child as they go by" possibly) ...Then
later they can stop by and offer children a ride home from
school as our child walks. The excuse is "Just going
by." or give children candy or accidentally go by their
school(in another town)to see your child or just molest the
child right there at the hall often in sight of others ...
How long does that take? These situations have and do exist
in the congregation ... When they meet our children
at the hall it is assumed they are SAFE ...We are told
we are in a spiritual paradise ...as I quoted from Psalms in
an earlier post ...If we dare to question this reasoning we
have a bad attitude that needs adjusting ...don't not to be
overly suspicious of our brothers ...Think about it ...Yes
the elders owe our children whether in a court of law/settlement
or before Jehovah God. The latter would not be so tolerant ...DJB
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
06:54:55
Comments
THAT STATEMENT THERE IMPERFECT HUMAN BEINGS IS CRAP A LOT OF
PEOPLE ARE IMPERFECT AND DON'T GO AROUND MOLESTING CHILDREN
NOR DO THEY ALLOW IT AND SAY NOTHING TO STOP IT SO STOP USING
THE DAMN EXCUSE THAT THE JW LEADERS ARE IMPERFECT HUMAN BEINGS
SICK OF PEOPLE USING EXCUSES TO HIDE OTHER PEOPLES SIN EVEN
THE BIBLE SAYS SINS WILL BE EXPOSED AND THAT'S WHAT IS HAPPENING
HERE PEOPLE ARE BEING EXPOSED IN THE KH I have said enough
for now Penny
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
06:55:47
Comments
THAT STATEMENT THERE IMPERFECT HUMAN BEINGS IS CRAP A LOT OF
PEOPLE ARE IMPERFECT AND DON'T GO AROUND MOLESTING CHILDREN
NOR DO THEY ALLOW IT AND SAY NOTHING TO STOP IT SO STOP USING
THE DAMN EXCUSE THAT THE JW LEADERS ARE IMPERFECT HUMAN BEINGS
SICK OF PEOPLE USING EXCUSES TO HIDE OTHER PEOPLES SIN EVEN
THE BIBLE SAYS SINS WILL BE EXPOSED AND THAT'S WHAT IS HAPPENING
HERE PEOPLE ARE BEING EXPOSED IN THE KH I have said enough
for now Penny
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
09:21:19
Comments
I have written to the source of the information provided to
me regarding my post about C.T. Russell's separation hearing.
Once I hear back about further evidence of it's validity and
truth, I'll post it here. OK? Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
12:35:57
Comments
I am so pleased that there are organizations like yours that
help fill the deep empty void left by the fanatical teachings
of a religion that seeks to own God. It is such a sin to have
to go through life knowing that your family thinks you are
evil because you think for yourself. Why doesn't it sink in
that being called a sheep is not a compliment! They're frequent
warnings like 'Watch out that you not be lead astray buy associating
with anyone who opposes them, or questioning doctrine, the
Internet is bad association- watch out! really saying don't
think for yourself!- let us think for you! and in return,
we will call you sheep! What happened to the "Truth Will
Set You Free?" Through their arrogance, they dare to
set themselves up as the voice of Jehovah. Why can't they
see through that? When I asked them if they would carry out
some of the evil deeds of the old testament, they invariably
say no but they love the one who does kill people, even innocent
babies and animals. What is it that they love about their
Jehovah? The Mosaic law is evil and filled with sadistic teachings,
such as you are to kill your son if he blasphemes by gathering
up the city folk and bludgeoning them with stones until they
slowly die. Gory animal sacrifices that break every civilized
law regarding humane animal treatment. I am a bad person because,
even though I am honest to a fault, and donate much time helping
people recovering from drugs& alcohol, I am not a JW's so
I am of the world= evil. I also smoke which proves my evilness.
I have spent 38 yrs alone in this world, with no family, brothers,
sisters, mother, because I am not a JW's. I feel the deepest
sense of loneliness that comes in a quiet moment, because
of that religion. If they only knew the pain they cause for
Jehovah. Thank you for your fine work. Jim L.
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
15:24:19
Comments
The Worldwide Christian Community Letter Number One June 2002
--- To All Bodies of Elders of Jehovah's Witnesses
--- A seven-page letter from the Branch Office
in Patterson, NY (Feb 15th 2002) was sent to "ALL BODIES
OF ELDERS IN THE UNITED STATES." However, you will be
aware from scripture that *all* older men are implicated.
(1 Peter 5:1-4) Therefore, we highlight the pertinent words
of the final sentence: "Please be assured of our continual
prayers in YOUR behalf as YOU carry out YOUR weighty responsibility
to shepherd the flock of God entrusted to YOUR care." --- Why Is the Governing Body Focusing On "Responsibility" At
This Time? All Jehovah's Witnesses know that the organization
is undergoing intense media scrutiny at present and the "sheep" are
being disturbed. What are the facts? We cite just a few: 1)
In the USA two multiple murders among Witness families in
Oregon have been widely reported. 2) In Scotland, UK, Alison
Cousins has courageously spoken of the years of sexual abuse
by her Witness father. This was reported in Woman's Own (March
25th 2002) under "Church of Shame." It also exposed
a shameful cover-up attempt by local elders. 3) Dateline (American
current affairs program) has been seen on both sides of the
Atlantic. It focused on the prevalence of child molestation
within the organization. Sincere current Witnesses spoke out
freely; they contrasted the ideal from the Society's public
relations department, with the stark, horrific reality that
exists in the congregations! 4) In the UK, the BBC has seen
incriminating secret letters from the Society instructing
you to keep quiet about Pedophiles in your congregations.
You are aware of this directive. Therefore, cliches about "keeping
the congregation clean" sound rather hollow when what
is unclean is "swept under the carpet." This is
causing hitherto loyal supporters to leave in disgust and
if they "blow the whistle" they are hastily dispatched
from your ranks (Jesus was a "whistle blower." Look
what they did to him!) 5) The Guardian of October 2001 (UK
newspaper) exposed a glaring act of hypocrisy by the Society.
In 1992 they joined the United Nations Organization! Details
are obtainable direct from the UNO. The Society has drawn
up a standard response. (see Organization book, page 151)
6) In France, the Society owes huge sums in unpaid taxes and
penalties. Add that to the escalating legal costs and damages
they face around the world, and the total is astronomical!
Their charity status is also under threat. But what about
YOUR status with God? --- Goodness or Righteousness:
Which Will YOU follow? If your child were sick during the
night you would promptly do something about it. You wouldn't
simply turn over and say, "Jehovah will sort it out!" Or,
if you only suspected your house was being burgled, you'd
call the police ... and they'd come wouldn't they? Imagine
them saying, "Sorry! We can't do anything without at
least two eye-witnesses." Yet this exactly illustrates
the Society's policy! But what is the policy in YOUR congregation?
To simply "follow orders" even when they come from
those that you trust, is to actually shirk the responsibility
that you have committed yourself to. To illustrate, when the
Titanic was sinking some of the stewards tried to stop third
class passengers from escaping via the first class area. That's
what happens when one thoughtlessly "follows company
orders." Precious lives are at stake! You often quote
from Matthew 18:16 in support of your "two eye-witnesses" policy.
But please read the rest of Jesus' words in that chapter and
compare the relative values he puts on "goodness" as
opposed to "righteousness". You have repeatedly
been taught that the problems Jesus was focusing on were not
criminal ones but minor things between brothers. Quite true!
So, to place the horrific acts that Pedophiles inflict on
their child victims into this category, apart from being a
flagrant distortion of scripture, is despicable. It reduces
such evil to the commonplace and is tantamount to abusing
the child yet again! In kindness and love we urge you: Have
goodness as your master and righteousness as your slave. (Please
read Ezekiel Ch. 34) For further information see: www.silentlambs.org
--- END OF LETTER --- http://www/exjws.net/letter1boe.htm
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
15:32:56
Comments
Excuse me that address for the "Worldwide Christian Community" mentioned
above should be: http://www.exjws.net/letter1boe.htm
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
16:19:38
Comments
ABOUT BUDDHISTS OR HINDUS ...just a thought to be
fair ...Angry???????????Why do you think I am angry???????Please
review my postings, my comments have been respectful and without
any indication of anger?????I'll let you reflect for awhile ...I'll
respond to your question in a few days ...….By the way,
please leave your screen name if possible………….ANGEL31
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
17:27:10
Comments
To Jim L ...I really appreciate your comments, and I understand
only too well your sense of loneliness in those quiet moments,
as you said. I know what it's like to not have "family",
as I was Disfellowshipped from the JW's back in '95 and have
had only minute communication with family members. This is
only when there has been a death in the family or extended
family, or when someone has become seriously ill. I find it
ironic that when my daughter was in the hospital last year,
suddenly my mother and my sister-in-law appeared in the room.
My mother hugged me, as well as my sister in law. My hands
remained down, I did not hug back. I felt very strange, uncomfortable
to an extreme. For them to appear in crisis moments, and then
to totally disappear again until the next crisis or death,
etc is so strange to me. I wish they hadn't shown up at the
hospital at all, because it made the situation very uncomfortable
for everyone around that has knowledge of the way family treats
ex-witnesses. It even seems strange to me to refer to them
as my "family". I know what family is supposed to
be, but since '95 that disappeared in a single announcement
of my Disfellowshipment. I have found many times that I have
actually forgotten at times that I have family by this name
or that name. Suddenly I hear the name brought up, and I have
to stop and think about it momentarily ...Oh Yeah, he's my
brother, or he's my cousin, etc. As strange and lonely as
I felt immediately after the announcement was made about me,
time has brought me peace. I have wonderful friends, real
friends. It is sad, yes ...that family can own you one day
and disown you the next, and treat you as though you are dead ...that
is, until there's another crisis then suddenly you're alive
again and being hugged!! Jim, I feel for what you said. I
really don't know where I got my "strength" or assertiveness,
I just know I will never allow myself to feel downtrodden
and stomped on and I'm certainly not dead! And Hey! I smoke
too ...watch my smoke rings fly! I don't care what my family
thinks anymore about me personally or what I do with my life.
Whether it is "wrong" for me to smoke or not, it's
still my choice and no one has the right to judge me accept
God himself. The Witnesses do not hold any power over me anymore.
Hang in there Jim! Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
17:38:24
Comments
To those of you who claim to be open-minded, AND are current
Witnesses ...I feel no Hate towards any of you. If
you are open minded as you claim, I highly recommend a thorough
reading of Ray Franz new book Crisis of Conscience 4th Edition.
He was a member of the Governing Body for nine years, his
own uncle was the Vice President under Knorr. Ray Franz wrote
this book out of love and a real sense of obligation to tell
the truth about what occurred in the Governing Body Sessions
and to tell the truth (with documentation as proof) about
how doctrine has been decided upon, as well as the "rules" for
being a Witness in good standing. Those of you who are NOT
familiar with the situation about the Malawi Brothers vs.
the Mexican Brothers, in my opinion are doing yourselves a
real disservice by not finding out what the Truth is on your
own, by your own study. Some say that the book is Apostate.
Well, it's not and it was not written that way either. It
was written to simply state the facts as they occurred, leaving
the reader to decide for themselves what they make of the
information. Ray Franz even makes that very statement at the
very beginning of the book. He doesn't tell the reader what
anyone should believe in or not believe in doctrine wise.
He simply states facts as they happened and recorded them.
Most people, except for those in that room during those sessions
knew UNTIL Ray's book what really goes on in those sessions.
Elders aren't told, C.O's aren't told, etc. Those meetings/sessions
are very very private. Those sessions/brothers are the ones
who decide every single aspect of Witnesses lives. Even what
should or should not go on in a Witness couples bedroom. Shouldn't
you see the information/evidence for YOURSELVES and you decide
for YOURSELF? Don't the Witnesses teach to Be Sure Of All
Things? Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
18:17:51
Comments
I have been gone for 3 days! I broke the plug that puts in
the juice for my email ...lots of catching up to do reading
the posts etc ...I missed you guys! I have to play catch up
with work first and then I will be back soon. Love Claudine
aka soap box
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
18:40:11
Comments
I'll be your family, if you'll be mine. Perhaps we can speak
of our 'ex' parents (or something else?), since we all seem
to have them. Your words resonate with me. I know what you're
talking about - I've been there, too. How dare these people
call themselves parents.
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
19:17:33
Comments
Susan: you need to write the Watchtower Society and then you
need to write CBS, NBC, Oprah, and anyone else you can think
of. We are with you in helping. People like you are very important
in that the WTS cannot accuse you of being "apostate" or
having a hidden agenda. Email addresses are on previous posts
for media contact. Please invite the victims to read the posts
here - so they know they are not alone or crazy etc ...and
maybe they can find the strength to get out. C. E.
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
19:59:37
Comments
Bless you. I'm XJW, free at last, and guiltless. I've been visiting
your chat room since the nbc broadcast. I've recently been
unable to find people in your chat room to talk with. But I
will continue to try and offer my time to help.
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
20:26:31
Comments
Hi again, *Response to previous Post,"talking about how
BR had no case against the elders to hold them accountable" unsigned*
... Larry
Baker according to the press release I received was an elder
in the past and was removed because he molested a child. This
puts the elders in the know about this man. Bryan Rees step-father
was an elder who knew ...
I do not know the laws in the states and maybe this is permitted
by church leaders to know about an abuser and allow him to
remain as a member attending the congregation meetings in
contact with children. I still say this is wrong. There is
sins of omission and sins of commission. This is clearly sins
of omission. He suffered because they did nothing. It was
so CRUEL of them ...
In Canada there is such a thing a Vicarious Liability. The
management committee that I serve on could be accountable
and sued by victims if say we unknowingly hired someone to
work with a child and say that child was molested (especially
if the job description was specific and say included for example
bathing the child, other close contact with said child etc).
We could be held accountable even if we did not know the person
was a molester. Even if it was a volunteer situation and child
was under our care and the child was molested by another person
we arranged or allowed to be around child we could be held
accountable ...
The elders should have warned the congregation about the pedophile
at the very least but they did not. How can we protect our
children when we are not given the tools to do so??? Such
as names of abusers, and forbidden access to the kingdom hall.
Somehow I see that the greater community has a responsibility
here. That greater community for many of Jehovah's Witnesses
is the kingdom hall and those who attend. I believe Bryan
Rees had a right to hold the elders accountable. It was in
their power they could have prevented so much pain and suffering
if they had warned and prevented his contact with Larry Baker(as
the one elder was his step-father) ...
In Canada(Ontario) when dangerous offender who is a child
molester moves into a community they will publish the picture
of the offender. It will be on the news warning the community.
So everyone is on the alert to watch for problems and this
to a certain extent protects the community. Some areas are
more diligent then others in this regard. Often the offender
is forced to move when this happens as no one wants them in
their area ...
I know of one case where a young woman saw a offenders picture
recognized his face as the one who had assaulted her on the
way home. She went to the police had him charged and he went
back to prison. This action would have prevented many others
from becoming victims of this man ...
The elders getting off with regards to Bryan Rees is not justice.
The laws obviously need to be changed to reflect more concern
for the victim what they need as regard compensation to put
their lives back together. These road blocks to justice should
be removed. Vicarious Liability of the elders here is very
clear to me ...DJB
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
21:54:40
Comments
This is where I got my information on C.T. Russell's divorce/separation
hearing: http://64.4.8.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=eb427ae4943df82707ff9e1470bd2ef3&lat=1025664706&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2epaulblizard%2ecom%2fruss1%2ehtml
Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
21:57:09
Comments
http://64.4.8.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=e4999772f94c8a20b38e0489f85235a5&lat=1025664875&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2epaulblizard%2ecom%2fruss1%2ehtml
Information on C.T. Russell's divorce hearing was obtained
from www.watchthetower.com Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
22:06:10
Comments
Darn, here I am trying to post the darn link to where I got
my information on C.T. Russell! Oh well, it is from www.watchthetower.com
OK? Yeeeesh! Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
22:12:46
Comments
Two more file lawsuits against Jehovah's Witnesses http://krd.realcities.com/ads/media/network/home/popup2.htm
Two file sex abuse suit against Jehovah's Witnesses congregation
BY STEPHEN SCOTT Religion Editor Two women filed a civil suit
Tuesday alleging they were sexually abused as young girls
by a fellow member of a Jehovah's Witnesses congregation in
Annandale, Minn.The women, both now 22 and living in the Twin
Cities, say the religion's very tenets make it virtually impossible
for victims to come forward, because at least two witnesses
are required to corroborate any act of wrongdoing. After
these incidents,'' said
the plaintiff's attorney, Jeffrey Anderson
of St. Paul, these women went to the elders,
and they were told, 'We don't really believe
you, because we require two witnesses to this for it to have
happened, and if there aren't two, you are giving false testimony.' At
issue is Jehovah's Witnesses understanding of the Bible, specifically
Deuteronomy 19:15, which says a single witness shall not suffice
in convicting a person of a crime or wrongdoing. Although Jehovah's
Witnesses do not interpret every passage of the Bible literally,
they base their beliefs solely on principles found in the
Bible.If the accused denies
the charges and there are no others who can substantiate them,
the elders cannot take action within the congregation at that
time,'' says the group's
official statement called "Jehovah's
Witnesses and Child Protection.'' Both
plaintiffs allege that while they were between 10 and 12 years
old, they were fondled by a male member of the congregation
who was eight years older. Named as defendants are Derek Lindala,
30, of South Haven, Minn., who is alleged to have fondled
the girls on separate occasions either in his family home
or while on church-related activities; the Annandale congregation;
and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, which
is the Jehovah's Witnesses incorporated headquarters ...Source
of this information was Woman-Awake@yahoogroups.com OK? Yeeeeesh!
Linda Thoman (Now I have to provide all my sources, eh?) LOL
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
22:38:12
Comments
Linda, When speaking to my mother (she has just started bible
studies) regarding Russell, she immediately stated that after
Russell died Rutherford had 'communication' that told him
that there was still false beliefs within the organization.
Then I read recently about how the JWs refer Russell's book
as inspired. There is an watchtower article on watchtowerobserver.com
that has July 1 2003 as the date and it is talking a lot about
Killing apostates. Do you know if that watchtower is just
dated wrong on that site or if its a 'future' one some say
will come to be???? I need to know this, it will help me and
my mom better understand the JW situation. She has not affiliated
with them for over a decade and I think that she has missed
vital information. Please help! bon
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
22:51:01
Comments
Aiding and abetting is a crime and it seems like a "conspiracy" to
commit a crime. Do the Elders that allow this to happen get
a perverted vicarious pleasure knowing that they allow other
men to sexually touch the children in the congregation???? *** I
would not let a pedophile so much as look at a picture of
my babies! Let alone attend a meeting with one present. *** I
remember the look the sister gave me who was studying with
me when I said to her that the one thing I could not do was
accept a pedophile at the KH , a murderer maybe, a pedophile
never. This was long before I knew anything. But she had a
look she gave me. *** I hung my American
Flag today in protest for what the WTS did to the Malawis
- a very small token of protest. I am filled with grief. c.e.
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
23:01:11
Comments
I just wanted to let everybody know what I have been working
on. Myself and another girl who wishes to remain anonymous
at this time filed a suit against the person who molested
us as children, the elders who protected and enabled him,
and the organization (WTBTS) who directed them to. Read the
story on this link. http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/3033760.html
Remote User:
Date:
02 Jul 2002
Time:
23:36:46
Comments
To ANGEL 31 *** Sorry, Angel31. Did I offend you?
If you see all the capital letters, that's because I couldn't
make them bold to emphasize. I hope you are not taking it
as I was yelling at you. It was I, Age00, who mentioned the
Buddhists and Hindus. They even worship carved images and COWS!
( I'm not yelling.) *** I guess for me the most problem
with the WTS's policy was that they have been ( and still
are )letting the accused/confessed pedophiles go door to door.
If you have an alcoholic friend, would you let him/her go
to a bar? I have talked to an elder recently, and he confirmed
that "They are still going door to door now". Would
you go out door to door with that pedophile brother/sister
with your child? And sit with him/her at the Kingdom Hall? *** I'm
not saying that the person doesn't deserve another chance.
I just think if he/she is accused without two or even one
witness, it is the child, the alleged victim, who needs to
see a psychologist. Trained and professional children's psychologists
can see things that we cannot. Besides faking a molestation
can't go too far in their eyes ...If one confesses
for molesting a child, I think ( I strongly believe) that
he/she should be isolated and restricted from congregation
members and the ministry until he/she gets some help. But
I know that it can't be certain that he/she could be cured.
But what can we do? We just have to try keep our place as
safe as possible, and try to cope with the problems we have
until God's kingdom come ...Age00
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
00:51:03
Comments
People if you don't want the JW's at your door write a note
to the kingdom hall that serves your area and tell them to
stay away from your house I learned this from the City Overseer,
it works. Bill in MN
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
01:00:50
Comments
It seems the way the JW's change their bible to match their
beliefs and justify their different beliefs from other religions.
Maybe its not molestation if you pound on enough doors and
make all of the book studies for a year. Lets face it God
is perfect, Man isn't and when Man thinks he is God you have
a very scary situation like those lying bastard at the WT
Bill in MN
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
01:46:16
Comments
ANOTHER LAW SUIT!!!!!! Well now everyone knows about it so
now I can talk about it! I was in Minnesota(still am right
now,I'll be in Dallas later today) when the press conference
took place yesterday. Her name is Heidi Meyer. She is a very
brave and inspirational person. I stayed at her house during
my visit and was strengthened by her display on camera and her
interviews with the papers. She was very confident and determined
to get the message out. There is a link posted above to one
of the many papers that covered the story. It was incredible
to be able to witness the stand she has taken--TO DO SOMETHING!!!!!
The other girl who is involved in the same suit has proved
to all that you can do something without having to disclose
who you are, but you can say who the abuser is and can seek
legal action for what they have done to you. Bill Bowen was
there also and it was a pleasure to be able to sit down and
speak with him. He is so driven by telling the truth and protecting
the children. He told us some stories of different experiences
he has had with the media and with people he has talked to--
he had tears in his eyes as did everyone listening. Anyone
who thinks he is in this for profit is DEAD WRONG!!!! His
intentions are the purest I have ever seen in my life!!!!
Heidi has come forward and so has the women who has chosen
to remain a Jane Doe. This needs to happen everywhere--Nation
and Worldwide!! People are listening, KEEP TALKING!!!!!!!!!
Love Jesika Thoman Dallas,Tx
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
07:11:48
Comments
For those who have been victimized please tell your experiences
and make them known! I talked with an elder yesterday that
saw the Dateline story and said "it was one sided".
I believe that even elders don't understand the depth of the
situation as to how many people who have been hurt! I told
him the Dateline story isn't an isolated case that there are
many more stories just like them. I told him I couldn't be
part of an organization that protected pedophiles and are
left to sit next to us in the Kingdom Halls. I asked "How
are we suppose to protect our children against pedophiles
when you allow them to remain in our presence?" He didn't
have an answer! That pretty much answered my prayers! To The
Mole who told me to keep asking questions, I did and didn't
come out with a warm fuzzy feeling! Keep reporting from within
and keep us informed! To Bill Bowen, keep fighting for those
who desperately need your help! Someone in Texas
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
08:08:37
Comments
When are there going to be updates on this site? This site
seems like it is dying.
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
09:29:12
Comments
OK, first my apologies to all for not seeing the pain nor
the action you are taking. Second, here are some steps I am
taking and a few ideas for Bill and those editing the website
to consider. My Steps: 1) I am sending to all my email contacts
(witnesses and others) weekly updates about the happenings
reported regarding this matter. (i.e., the court case in MN,
UK action, etc.) 2) My son and I are building a quick app
to hit against my personal website that will create for you
a free email site to use for posting here. Will publish on
this site if Bill requests it. 3) I am moving away from the
Watchtower organization – as stated before, there is
no hope… Thoughts for the website: 1) How about a link
to Jeff Anderson, the attorney for the two young women from
Minnesota? Not hard to do and it would be a great step in
providing the legal, financial, and psychological relief so
many who come here need. 2) Also, are there any therapists
who can be reached for those who need help? After reviewing
credentials (I believe this is a must) again, a link to contact
them could be set up. Random thoughts and visualization of
Jericho and Rahab. Will expand on later as I see and hear
the sound of trumpets and an assembly marching. There is … Dronj
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
10:24:17
Comments
Jesika and Bill Bowen were in Minnesota yesterday for a news
conference regarding a lawsuit filed by two woman. Here is
one link to one of the articles. http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/3588212.htm
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
10:26:52
Comments
Here is another link to another article regarding the news
conference Jesika and Bill Bowen were at yesterday. http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/news/breaking_news/3588930.htm
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
10:28:29
Comments
One more link to an article due to the news conference Jesika
and Bill Bowen were at yesterday. http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/07/02/jehovahs.witness.lawsuit.ap/index.html
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
10:35:56
Comments
To BON ...I'm sorry but I've heard about what you're referring
to but I don't have any information on it at this time. I
will see what I can find out. Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
10:38:31
Comments
Hi, its me, little lost one. I've been reading all of this
and it has helped me so much to be confident in my decision
on disassociating myself. I no longer have part of my family
because their witnesses and my so called best friends are
no longer my best friends. I watched the news last night which
confirms that this is not an isolated case and that I'm not
irrational. That's what the elder told me. I'm
so thankful for everyone on this site and I'm very proud of
the victims coming out to tell their stories. Keep up the
good work. I have found a freedom I've never had before because
of the ones going on TV and on this site telling for THE TRUTH!!!
I love you all and may Jehovah bless all your honesty and
give you much peace. your friend, L.L.O
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
10:40:00
Comments
Hi, its me, little lost one. I've been reading all of this
and it has helped me so much to be confident in my decision
on disassociating myself. I no longer have part of my family
because their witnesses and my so called best friends are
no longer my best friends. I watched the news last night which
confirms that this is not an isolated case and that I'm not
irrational. That's what the elder told me. I'm
so thankful for everyone on this site and I'm very proud of
the victims coming out to tell their stories. Keep up the
good work. I have found a freedom I've never had before because
of the ones going on TV and on this site telling THE TRUTH!!!
I love you all and may Jehovah bless all your honesty and
give you much peace.. your friend, L.L.O
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
10:48:48
Comments
To Bon ...I have emailed Kent@observer.org to ask him your
question about the article with the date of 2003. Once I hear
back, I'll let you know. Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
11:43:15
Comments
I keep seeing the word, "alleged" or "alleges" in
those news articles regarding the Silentlambs' cases. How
many have been proven guilty of molestation and got sentenced
to prison? ...Anyone knows?
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
11:56:43
Comments
SUCH AN UGLY REALITY. AS A FORMER JW, I AM APPALLED, BUT NOT
SURPRISED.
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
12:17:47
Comments
I'm looking at July 1, 2002 issue Watchtower ...hmm ...there
are articles on "Religious Icon", "Worship
God in Spirit", "Jehovah Beautifies His People With
Light", "Jehovah's Glory Shines on His People", "Is
Your Teaching Effective?", "Strengthened by Our
Worldwide Brotherhood", "Walking in Jehovah's Paths
Brings Rich Rewards", "International Convention
2003", and "Avoid Being Deceived". The last
article says, "Open your mind and heart to the one indisputable
source of religious truth, the Bible," and NOTHING about
'apostates' ...If the article mentioned above
is false, IT IS NOT HELPING THE SILENT LAMBS. It makes them
look bad to the whole world, and gives another excuse to the
Society to call these victims, "Apostates" ...Age00
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
13:10:47
Comments
Here is the reply from Kent regarding the article with a 2003
date: I guess the article you are referring to is a joke :)
I don't remember who actually made it - but I'm sure that's
the one. It's been in there for a year and a half. Kent --- Original
Message --- From: Lin *** [mailto:linthoman@hotmail.com
Sent: 3. juli 2002 17:46 To: kent@observer.org Subject: Regarding
your site..a question Hi Kent, my name is Linda Thoman. I
heard about your site from someone who posted a link on silentlambs
Guestbook. The same person that put the link has asked me
about a possible typo error on your site and asked me if I
knew anything about it. The person said there is an article
on your site about a Watchtower with the date of 2003 ...not
2002. Was this a typo or did the Organization come out with
some "prophecy" for next year? I hope you will respond
quickly, although I'm sure you're busy there. Thank you in
advance. Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
14:00:43
Comments
Thank you for your website. I'm relieved to see that my spouse
is not alone! He was raised in the JW religion and did not
even know his date of birth until he was in court testifying
to the repeated sexual abuse he endured from his step-father
( a JW). He never has fully understood why his mother (another
JW) stood by that man. The man was never sentenced either,
despite the accounted sexual and physical abuse of my husband,
his two brothers and the three daughters that his mother had
with the man. I myself, am doing school research for my RN
degree and stumbled across your site. Thanks again , Jenni
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
14:12:49
Comments
HI IT'S JESIKA again. It was amazing to be there for the press
conference in Minnesota!!!!!!!! The strength the two women
showed was something words can't describe. To DROJI-- Thank
you for the apology although I feel it isn't needed, to know
someone has seen how deep this problem is and to understand
the pain of those of us who have been through the persecution
of the WT is good enough for me. TO the LITTLE LOST ONE, you
have decided to disassociate yourself from the org, that is
not something we are trying to get people to do. If it is
a choice you have made for yourself, I just want you to know
we ALL support you. I hope the policy will change, and they
will admit it was wrong (I'm crossing my fingers). To the
person asking about the quotes of ALLEGED--the suit filed
in Minnesota was filed yesterday, so until proven guilty--you
know the rest.We all need to celebrate the stand so many are
beginning to have, no longer to fear the WT and the reason
for speaking out is not to lash out in anger, but it is because
it is the RIGHT THING TO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Look into the eyes
of the children around you and tell yourself to protect them
is your reason for coming forward to tell the truth. You can
be referred to as Joe or Jane Doe if you want privacy, but
you can still take the action that is needed!!!!!!!! CLASS
ACTION SUITS --- I promised I would ask the lawyers about
this and what it would take to do so. I was told by Jeff Anderson
personally in his office that to file such a suit would involve
everyone's experience to be the same. For example--when there
is a group of people hurt by the same product than all the
victims can come together in a class suit. Since the situation
here is so many people were abused by different people and
it was handled by different elders there are too many differences
for it to fall in the Class Action scenario. I will call Jeff
or Bill to see if I can post his phone #. He has already been
contacted (Jeff) by over 100 JW's and ex-JW's about the matter
of abuse. This was before the press conference. I will post
his info after I contact him and have his OK. Jesika Thoman
Dallas, Tx
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
15:08:22
Comments
Hey all ...here's another link to another article on the news
conference in Minnesota: http://www.kmsp.com/news/local/story.asp?content_id=1257723
Linda Thoman
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
15:34:46
Comments
YOU CAN WATCH IT ON VIDEO --- on kstp.com is another place
to find the Minnesota story, but you can choose to watch the
news broadcast. I watched it and Heidi and Bill spoke on the
interview. Jesika Thoman Dallas,Tx
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
17:06:45
Comments
I am the wife of a man who was raised in a family of JW's(they
even donated their land to have a hall built).About three
years ago it came out that my husbands step-father molested
him when he was a child.What even shocked me more was to know
that his mother was aware of the molestation and of how it
was handled within the congregation. I now have a wonderful
spouse who deals with a lot of anger and rage and withdrawal
even now because of something that could have been handled
years ago. I believe that this is an organization that is a
breeding ground for child molesters. Something needs to be
done to keep these people from protecting the animals out
there who prey on our children!!
Remote User:
Date:
03 Jul 2002
Time:
21:26:28
Comments
Would it be considered a class action law suit against the
WTS, since they dictate the "two witnesses", continued
to allow pedophiles to "serve" as elders or JW's
in good standing. Also, how they kept people from talking
calling it slander, so as to isolate victims from reality.
The articles written by the WTS about the Catholic Church
was a deep deception of hypocrisy giving the "impression" that
this situation would never ever exist with the Congregation
of Jehovah. The "product" was the "spiritual" food,
the direction of the elders and the claim that it was backed
with Holy Spirit. *** you probably have covered all this with
the attorney but just in case you haven't. *** I
spoke with a sister today, conversation ended with her "fleeing" from
me saying she didn't want to hear anymore. Heard the words "imperfect" again
and again. She Blames the naive parents. She showed no love
for the Malawis - called it just dirt being brought up. Told
me the congregation is being blessed by Jehovah because now
they have over 100 people there on Sunday. She questioned
how I was being "fed" - I told her I have Jehovah
and the bible and she said that wasn't enough. The main impression
I was left with is that she showed absolutely no compassion,
not for the victims of pedophiles (she said they needed to
get over it!) and showed no interest at all in my concerns
and said I was being picky. She acted as if we were having
a conversation about trivial matters, not grave concerns and
that I had the attitude problem. She just kept defending the
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